tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post7363642410548943408..comments2023-10-06T11:13:20.836-04:00Comments on Izgad: Rabbi Marc Angel Takes on Kupat Ha'irIzgadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-42703422440828159612010-01-06T20:55:04.584-05:002010-01-06T20:55:04.584-05:00How about this? When Haredi rabbis are no longer m...How about this? When Haredi rabbis are no longer mouthing off about the non Haredi world and keep to tending their own house I will devote myself totally to my medieval and early modern Jews and Christians getting reading for the Apocalypse.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-198505284960083362010-01-06T19:48:26.604-05:002010-01-06T19:48:26.604-05:00I am at least as qualified, in terms of my persona...<i>I am at least as qualified, in terms of my personal life experience, to talk about Haredim, as just about any Haredi rabbi out there is qualified to talk about Reform and Conservative Jews.</i><br /><br />Which means you are unqualified - by your own admission - to speak about "haredim."kishkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12142960593402225524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-43057696106751978772010-01-06T19:17:03.539-05:002010-01-06T19:17:03.539-05:00“The point is you probably don't know a lot of...“The point is you probably don't know a lot of "haredim" as friends; you don't meet a lot of them outside of your family; you don't socialize with "haredim"; ergo, you don't know much about how most of them think and what they really think about most issues.”<br />I certainly socialized a fair amount (not that I in general am a very sociable person) with Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-78248071403945784542010-01-06T19:08:07.357-05:002010-01-06T19:08:07.357-05:00My Haredi family has known for years about my view...My Haredi family has known for years about my views and we have had many fun discussions. <br /><br />I do not believe that the prophet Jeremiah engaged in idolatry by talking about the crying of Mother Rachel. Praying on behalf of other people is not a problem. Jeremiah did not pray to Rachel and Rachel was certainly allowed to pray to God. <br /><br />In general I understand the whole Midrash Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-59494931559713077862010-01-06T18:01:46.780-05:002010-01-06T18:01:46.780-05:00So what does your "haredi" family think ...So what does your "haredi" family think of your contention that Yirmiyah haNavi engaged in idolatry when he said קול ברמה?kishkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12142960593402225524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-67714380086648403332010-01-06T17:36:32.666-05:002010-01-06T17:36:32.666-05:00That being said obviously there are people out the...<i>That being said obviously there are people out there who buy into their claims and are giving them money.</i><br /><br />They don't give money because of the claims; they give money in spite of the claims, b/c it's still tzedakah.<br /><br />As for you coming from a "haredi" family, so what? Everyone has cousins. The point is you probably don't know a lot of "haredimkishkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12142960593402225524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-21887149230574914762010-01-06T15:21:59.711-05:002010-01-06T15:21:59.711-05:00“I'll bet you don't know many "Haredi...“I'll bet you don't know many "Haredim."’<br /><br />Kishke<br /><br />I come from a Haredi family. Most of the people that I know and deal with are relatively moderate and, like you, dismiss Kupat Ha’ir as a joke. That being said obviously there are people out there who buy into their claims and are giving them money. More importantly, a major theme in this blog is that to Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-20827443669596653092010-01-06T14:57:40.801-05:002010-01-06T14:57:40.801-05:00I was reading the descriptions of Mother Rachel ac...<i>I was reading the descriptions of Mother Rachel acting on behalf of her children and desiring to hear from them and could not find a meaningful difference between that and my medieval and early modern Catholics beseeching the Virgin Mary. Traditional Jewish thought (as well as Protestant thought) looks at such actions as idolatry.</i><br /><br />Really? It's in Tanach: קול ברמה נשמע רחל kishkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12142960593402225524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-11103959367482123792010-01-06T09:56:38.083-05:002010-01-06T09:56:38.083-05:00Yehupitz
“I have reviewed Rambam Hilchos AKU"...Yehupitz<br /><br />“I have reviewed Rambam Hilchos AKU"M many times, and there is nothing there about the efficacy or inappropriateness of having Talmidei Chachomim or Anshei Maaseh daven on one's behalf.”<br /><br />I think we are talking past each other here. The issue here is not prayer, but the use of an intermediary. Maimonides certainly has a lot to say against using Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-18832710785001719822010-01-05T21:49:27.898-05:002010-01-05T21:49:27.898-05:00Izgad, I have reviewed Rambam Hilchos AKU"M m...Izgad, I have reviewed Rambam Hilchos AKU"M many times, and there is nothing there about the efficacy or inappropriateness of having Talmidei Chachomim or Anshei Maaseh daven on one's behalf. It has nothing to do with the spheres. Again, a perusal of whole chunks of Masechta Taanis (that's Shas, not Zohar and not Chassidic sources) will bear this out. It is more than "yehupitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-82185278222766761072010-01-05T19:47:26.218-05:002010-01-05T19:47:26.218-05:00Ever consider that the Gras criticism of the Ramba...Ever consider that the Gras criticism of the Rambam - that because of the philosophy he studied he took interpreted the gemara incorrectly when the pshat sounds too "mystical."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-38701038055097989312010-01-05T11:47:07.354-05:002010-01-05T11:47:07.354-05:00Yehupitz
It is a commendable action to pray on be...Yehupitz<br /><br />It is a commendable action to pray on behalf of other people. It is also perfectly ok to seek out righteous people for spiritual advice. The problem becomes when you go to beings other than God and beseech them to pray on your behalf on the assumption that these beings, who are not God, have some sort of power in of themselves. <br /><br />Keep in mind Maimonides idolatry 101.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-58213329393297374982010-01-05T10:41:25.909-05:002010-01-05T10:41:25.909-05:00then more scandals we have around names of religio...then more scandals we have around names of religious people then less secular people respect our religion... and its a problem coz such relation can bring us to assimilation..ilona@israelhttp://samsonblinded.org/news/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-39043122709705975312010-01-05T08:09:43.053-05:002010-01-05T08:09:43.053-05:00Learn some chumash where Moshe davens for the peop...Learn some chumash where Moshe davens for the people. Learn Masechta Taanis, which has numerous stories of rabbis (like Chanina Ben Dosa and others) davening for people, the people, rain, beauty etc. And then reconsider this ridiculous formulation "down for the record as saying that most Haredim...are idolaters." Such a sentence might be funny if it weren't so dangerous.<br /><bryehupitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-43545166766452560092010-01-04T19:22:47.348-05:002010-01-04T19:22:47.348-05:00Moish
Saying that God might choose to act in acco...Moish<br /><br />Saying that God might choose to act in accordance with the wishes of a righteous person and is far more likely to do so than for you or me is one thing. The moment you suggest that people have actual power over God and can “force” him to do certain things then we have crossed a line into magic and idolatry. Keep in mind that I am down for the record as saying that most Haredim, Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-82736054190637607202010-01-04T17:43:08.540-05:002010-01-04T17:43:08.540-05:00the gemara says tzadik gozer hashem mekayem. That ...the gemara says tzadik gozer hashem mekayem. That sounds like normativ judaism to me.moishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-48012059961999852412010-01-04T16:14:15.976-05:002010-01-04T16:14:15.976-05:00I have taken on both Tropper and Kupat Ha'ir a...I have taken on both Tropper and Kupat Ha'ir a number of times. The tzad hashaveh is they both introduce ideas that before hand were not part of mainstream Judaism and seemingly force them upon us as doctrine. Kupat Ha'ir through "gadol worship" Where they are getting people to daven to rav chaim kanievsky instead of G-d and Tropper by putting an undue burden on (some) geirim Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-56306781707739552332010-01-04T16:09:55.778-05:002010-01-04T16:09:55.778-05:00Heshy
I do like your blog Frum Satire and am hono...Heshy<br /><br />I do like your blog Frum Satire and am honored by your presence here. We actually met once in person. You were doing a stand up show in Cleveland.Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-28525484662277120212010-01-04T16:07:00.488-05:002010-01-04T16:07:00.488-05:00Jon
“-Traditional Jewish Thought has been the hom...Jon<br /><br />“-Traditional Jewish Thought has been the home to a whole number of views on anything and everything. As such, it's impossible to say that "Traditional Jewish thought looks at such actions as idolatry," because it's simply not true.”<br /><br />I agree that Jewish thought includes a wide variety of beliefs. In theory it includes Baal worship, Sadducees and KaritesIzgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-39998231691316170372010-01-04T15:27:39.197-05:002010-01-04T15:27:39.197-05:00I agree that it's awkward to more or less prom...I agree that it's awkward to more or less promise open miracles.<br /><br />But the idea that the prayers of tzaddikim can be more efficacious than those of normal people has a long Jewish pedigree. Think of all the prayers of Moses -- El na refa na la, etc. And of the statement in the Gemara that all the sages had the power to revive the dead. <br /><br />There is also much material to the yeshayahunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-11898961265859293582010-01-04T15:26:16.311-05:002010-01-04T15:26:16.311-05:00Yehupitz
“I concur with you on most of the actual...Yehupitz<br /><br />“I concur with you on most of the actual issues brought up in this post, but your tone makes me reject you fully.”<br /><br />I usually attempt to write in a restrained tone. I admit that this was one of my more polemical pieces. The argument that I often make to people is that they should not use terms that challenge the moral validity of the opposition unless they are Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-62259433871469376072010-01-04T15:18:35.417-05:002010-01-04T15:18:35.417-05:00Jon said "...the place they get the idea of p...Jon said "...the place they get the idea of praying to Rachel isn't exactly nowhere - it's Tanakh. There's an episode (I think at the end of Yirmiyahu but I don't recall) in which HKB"H asks the Avot what they'd say in defense of their offspring, and they say "destroy 'em" and then Rachel comes to the rescue."<br /><br />It's midrash (Pesichta Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-81541923123206903022010-01-04T14:38:11.901-05:002010-01-04T14:38:11.901-05:00I followed Gil's link. And I am disappointed. ...I followed Gil's link. And I am disappointed. Why? Because I concur with you on most of the actual issues brought up in this post, but your tone makes me reject you fully. I see two sides of this kulturkampf in the Orhtodox community nowadays. <br /><br />E.g., phrases like "If only Orthodox Judaism ... had not sold its soul to Haredi fanatics..." tell me you are not willing to yehupitznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-65509695810216432562010-01-04T12:36:55.930-05:002010-01-04T12:36:55.930-05:00WADR:
The prescription here is flawed from the st...WADR:<br /><br />The prescription here is flawed from the start, and I'll tell you why. But first, the minor issues:<br /><br />-Traditional Jewish Thought has been the home to a whole number of views on anything and everything. As such, it's impossible to say that "Traditional Jewish thought looks at such actions as idolatry," because it's simply not true. If you want to Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-58419220576422673002010-01-04T06:48:14.696-05:002010-01-04T06:48:14.696-05:00Awesome - you know when I read that part of the bo...Awesome - you know when I read that part of the book, I just knew that you would appreciate. I'm glad that I was able to win over another frum Jew to this side :-DMiss S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10887805742474651903noreply@blogger.com