tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post8107393820764011918..comments2023-10-06T11:13:20.836-04:00Comments on Izgad: The Atheist Convention in ColumbusIzgadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-68471167286924207482009-02-20T06:35:00.000-05:002009-02-20T06:35:00.000-05:00Thanks Malcolm,Again, I agree with your elaboratio...Thanks Malcolm,<BR/><BR/>Again, I agree with your elaborations on this topic and with the necessity to vociferously challenge the subversive and ignorant "crusades" going on this country and elsewhere against science and reason.<BR/><BR/>Thanks Benzion for allowing us to comment about these things on your interesting blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-86030847533641178122009-02-19T22:53:00.000-05:002009-02-19T22:53:00.000-05:00@mike"know from experience that science produces m...@mike<BR/><B>"know from experience that science produces more questions than answers."</B><BR/><BR/>Agree completely. But it <I>does</I> produce new answers that we can use to guide us through the world around us. And having new <I>questions</I> to ask is the first step towards finding more answers. <BR/><BR/>@Naturalist<BR/>It seems we hold pretty similar views. <BR/>I agree that the knowledge Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048098160919357897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-59686579724134295452009-02-19T14:11:00.000-05:002009-02-19T14:11:00.000-05:00Malcolm,I fully agree that through science and the...Malcolm,<BR/><BR/>I fully agree that through science and the agreements of collective human experience, we do know some things with much certainty, though I would leave room for almost anything to be revised given the limits of our ability to know the full extent of the universe.<BR/><BR/>I agree that broadening our understanding through science and reason is probably one of the best ways we Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-18731726880602799982009-02-19T11:49:00.000-05:002009-02-19T11:49:00.000-05:00Look, not alot of time. I'm a researcher. Know f...Look, not alot of time. I'm a researcher. Know from experience that science produces more questions than answers. See the video "Knowledge and Certainty" from the "Ascent of Man" BBC series. Its in the library. Objective observation is limited.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-54771427310461987882009-02-19T00:44:00.000-05:002009-02-19T00:44:00.000-05:00Not to go all semantic on you, but agnostic isn't ...Not to go all semantic on you, but agnostic isn't a belief system. Its an admission of lack of knowledge. You can be an agnostic Jew "I don't have any proof of Gods existence, but I believe in him" or an agnostic atheist "I can't prove they're no gods, but I don't believe in them" Or you can be gnostic in your belief system, or claim that you have specific knowledge to back up your claim. Barthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052061841793700062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-46529598649782066322009-02-18T23:38:00.000-05:002009-02-18T23:38:00.000-05:00@Naturalist, (and Brad, Mike et al.),Re: Absolute ...@Naturalist, (and Brad, Mike et al.),<BR/><BR/>Re: Absolute truth<BR/><BR/>This has the potential to degenerate into another comment-thread debate where people just talk past each other. We are obviously holding different ideas of what 'absolute truth' means.<BR/><BR/>My position is that we (humanity) don't know the whole truth about the universe and never will. But we do know and understand someMalcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048098160919357897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-6996777534484688812009-02-18T16:07:00.000-05:002009-02-18T16:07:00.000-05:00If you believe that God exists, (belief here meani...If you believe that God exists, (belief here meaning taking something as an operational assumption and the willingness to allow this operational assumption to directly affect your decision making) but that he has not revealed himself through any of the major religions and that no religion is the Truth then you are a deist. I fail to see how this is any less coherent than the claim made by those Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-63363096512023750772009-02-18T14:41:00.000-05:002009-02-18T14:41:00.000-05:00Kamaka, I agree: deism is the fig-leaf for agnosti...Kamaka, I agree: deism is the fig-leaf for agnosticism, developed in an age when atheism and perhaps agnosticism were crimes.Monadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523329434641725631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-679525785456248582009-02-18T12:59:00.000-05:002009-02-18T12:59:00.000-05:00Science provides us with approximations of truth t...Science provides us with approximations of truth that are revisable if new informtion is discovered. In a universe that is almost incomprehensible in time and space, a broad context that we have only limited personal knowledge of from our limited viewpoint on this small planet,it would seem incredibly naive,if not hubristic to assume we know the "absolute truth"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-46527784725462841852009-02-18T00:18:00.000-05:002009-02-18T00:18:00.000-05:00Mike Said: "From science (the real science as oppo...Mike Said: "From science (the real science as opposed to the popular misconceptions of science) we learn that there is no absolute truth."<BR/><BR/>Hmmm... now there's an absolute statement. How could that be true logically? It's self-contradictory.<BR/><BR/>You've made an absolute statement that we learn from science that science cannot provide an absolute truth?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-75118898017606728922009-02-17T19:49:00.000-05:002009-02-17T19:49:00.000-05:00I have posted the first part of my response to som...I have posted the first part of my response to some of these comments. More to follow.(http://izgad.blogspot.com/2009/02/introduction-and-word-of-explanation.html)Izgadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03869626126435460209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-30053103768855902202009-02-17T19:10:00.000-05:002009-02-17T19:10:00.000-05:00Oh, I type "G-d" out of habit, not religious manda...Oh, I type "G-d" out of habit, not religious mandate. The thing is, if I type a document and print it, if "God" is not fully written out, then there is no issue with a non-becoming disposal (desecration?) of G-d's name. Although the actual Jewish law only refers to the Hebrew name for G-d. So it's just a habit/custom and there's nothing wrong with typing/writing "God". Just like there's nothing Miss S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10887805742474651903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-82139176381922392832009-02-17T18:47:00.000-05:002009-02-17T18:47:00.000-05:00Miss S. thanks for your follow up, that clears up ...Miss S. thanks for your follow up, that clears up quite a bit. I always thought of kosher as a cuisine. I have seen the kosher tamales etc, but always considered that an aberration. On the first point, I still thing you're on to something. I would like to see a percentage study. What percent of people at the extremes abandon their position, how many become moderates, how many flip sides Barthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052061841793700062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-1354640077323133252009-02-17T10:49:00.000-05:002009-02-17T10:49:00.000-05:00Mike said From science (the real science as oppose...Mike said <B>From science (the real science as opposed to the popular misconceptions of science) we learn that there is no absolute truth.</B><BR/><BR/>That is the sort of meaningless, wannabe-profound statement that first caught my attention, irritated me, and started me reading and commenting on the debates around the intersection between religion, science, reason and tolerance.<BR/><BR/>Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048098160919357897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-12021452831588547832009-02-17T09:40:00.000-05:002009-02-17T09:40:00.000-05:00Bart,My apologies, I communicated my point badly. ...Bart,<BR/><BR/>My apologies, I communicated my point badly. You are right, there are more people in the middle ground then there are at the [philosophical] extremes. What I really meant to say is that the extremes are more <I>effective</I> at impressing upon their adherents the "why" behind their particular outlook. Whereas in the middle ground, you have too much of "Well I just never thought Miss S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10887805742474651903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-73759388485735794432009-02-17T08:25:00.000-05:002009-02-17T08:25:00.000-05:00Re: Bart's questionI see this rejection of the maj...Re: Bart's question<BR/><BR/>I see this rejection of the majority view alot on atheist blogs. Perhaps the converse from religious fundamentalists is their mantra of atheism being a religion. Don't know what any of this means.<BR/><BR/>For me, the answer to Bart's question comes from two spheres of knowledge. From science (the real science as opposed to the popular misconceptions of science) weAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-34980384722072932002009-02-17T05:36:00.000-05:002009-02-17T05:36:00.000-05:00"It seems to me that P.Z. is a fully committed sec..."It seems to me that P.Z. is a fully committed secularist. This means that he fully recognises the need to keep religious (or non-religious) polemics out of the public sphere. It would be a bit hypocritical of him to expect this of others without following it through himself."<BR/><BR/>Yes, PZ is a fully-committed secularist. Secularists don't seek to "keep religious (or non-religious) polemics Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-20728774472300151902009-02-17T00:39:00.000-05:002009-02-17T00:39:00.000-05:00Miss S. I've done some thinking on your comment 'Y...Miss S. I've done some thinking on your comment 'Yet the extremes are much more efficient at maintaining it's adherents than the middle ground seems to be.' Its an interesting claim, I would like to see some data on it. It would be a difficult thing to measure, as the bulk of the population would fit into the middle ground. From what I've seen in the world, I think that the extreme Barthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11052061841793700062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-29347858914141953042009-02-17T00:08:00.000-05:002009-02-17T00:08:00.000-05:00Mona Albano said "I'm not sure who said it: "We ar...Mona Albano said "I'm not sure who said it: <I>"We are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do."</I><BR/><BR/>The version of that quotation that I remember went something like this:<BR/><I>"I contend that we are both atheists. Only when you truly understand why you don't believe in all the other gods mankind has worshipped in the past will you understand why I don't believe in Malcolmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048098160919357897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-3985450901046962332009-02-16T23:28:00.000-05:002009-02-16T23:28:00.000-05:00Nice article.I'm of the camp that "I don't know, a...Nice article.<BR/><BR/>I'm of the camp that "I don't know, and I don't think you do either, Rabbi/Pope/Iman/Televangelist/ScreamingStreetcornerGuy/Dad" is not an extreme position.<BR/><BR/>We've got a whole planetload of people who swear the theological equivalent of "I can fly to the dark side of the moon in my dreams and know every detail of it and you don't because you're evil and sinful and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-71027533692805196382009-02-16T21:51:00.000-05:002009-02-16T21:51:00.000-05:00Very well-written. Thanks!Jeff DubinBoard Member,...Very well-written. Thanks!<BR/><BR/>Jeff Dubin<BR/>Board Member, HCCOAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720825588301479764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-57860448347990336192009-02-16T20:16:00.000-05:002009-02-16T20:16:00.000-05:00The religionists are fighting "ethnic" wars everyw...The religionists are fighting "ethnic" wars everywhere you look, and secularism is extremist?<BR/><BR/>Take individual responsibility for making the world a place worth living in.<BR/><BR/>Seems rational to me.<BR/>___________________<BR/><BR/>Deism is for folks who can't make the leap to "we just don't know".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-30932758532911459782009-02-16T19:24:00.001-05:002009-02-16T19:24:00.001-05:00Hi! I popped over from Pharyngula. Nice review. To...Hi! I popped over from Pharyngula. Nice review. <BR/><BR/>To me secularism is an attitude that religion isn't very important in daily life. It's common even among people who go to worship sometimes. In the U.S. especially or if you're speaking of government, secularism usually means believing that government should not promote nor repress religion. <BR/><BR/>One of my friends once remarked that Monadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523329434641725631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-2259077291749097942009-02-16T19:24:00.000-05:002009-02-16T19:24:00.000-05:00Hey, Bart. I'm actually an atheist, but I keep ko...Hey, Bart. I'm actually an atheist, but I keep kosher just because I like having that cultural link to my heritage. It's hard to justify to someone who has never been in the orthodox community, but that's what I do, and I feel that it's my business and nobody else's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6543853523791774463.post-33138759024512767752009-02-16T17:59:00.000-05:002009-02-16T17:59:00.000-05:00Hey Bart,You raise an interesting question; and I...Hey Bart,<BR/><BR/>You raise an interesting question; and I'm curious to hear the answer as well (if Izgad wishes to answer it). However he stated his rejection was of charedi/ultra-Orthodox Judaism which is not the same as observant Judaism. Keeping kosher is basic Judaism. Fear and demonization of the non-Jewish world and its products (which charedi Jews tend to do) is not.<BR/><BR/>In my Miss S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10887805742474651903noreply@blogger.com